Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

topic posted Tue, June 28, 2005 - 8:16 PM by  Francine
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My man and I have not planned on giving our kid vaccinations, but we would like to travel with him to Europe to visit family and to the "3rd world" (Central & S. America). HAs anyone had experience traveling with unimmunized kids or selectively immunized kids? Any words of advice?
posted by:
Francine
SF Bay Area
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  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Tue, June 28, 2005 - 9:01 PM
    Yeah.

    Why take that chance? I hope this won't be received as snarky, but if you choose to take that chance with your child, for pete's sake, don't take them to countries where they may actually encounter some of the diseases you will leave them vulnerable to.
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Wed, June 29, 2005 - 12:14 AM
      Unfortunately, there ARE many diseases that are still out there in the world that are no longer problems in the USA. Personally, I would be nervous traveling with my child to some of those areas if she did not have those shots.
      I would suggest, talk to your childs pediatrician and check with the WHO about those countries you plan to travel to.
      We live in Turkey and love to travel so that was one of the definite reasons we decided to immunize our daughter.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Wed, June 29, 2005 - 12:22 AM
    advice 1: immunize your kid

    since you have probably given a lot of thought to that already and decided it's not an option

    advice 2: check the state department and who websites for information on health conditions. some countries have much better health conditions than the us

    advice 3: i know this will be difficult if you are visiting family, but avoid people and especially other kids being too close to your kid

    advice 4: wherever you are, make sure you have located the closest hospital
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Wed, June 29, 2005 - 5:56 AM
    Francine, how old is your child? It would probably be a good idea to give him or her a few shots if you really do intend to travel to some more remote areas, just like it would probably be a good idea for you and your partner to do the same for yourselves.

    I'm fully supportive of selective immunizations, but if I were planning on traveling to third world countries with my child I would a) wait until they're over three years old and b) give them the recommended shots before going, even if the rest of their AMA "recommended vaccination schedule" is all shot to hell.
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Wed, June 29, 2005 - 8:21 AM
      I'm with everyone else. I'll never forget a bulletin board community I used to belong to where a member came on totally shell shocked because a daycare his kid frequented had just closed.

      The daycare was specifically for unimmunized kids and one of the kids (not his) had contracted pertussis and died. Pertussis for god's sake. Who the hell even knows what it is anymore? And this was in the US, not a third word country.

      The risk is too high, I'm for immunizing.
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Wed, June 29, 2005 - 8:56 AM
        "The risk is too high, I'm for immunizing"

        Me too-

        I went the "against immunization" route with my first child. You know what? No immunizations and he still has a diagnosis of Autism.

        My second child, I proceeded with immunizations, but I spread it out over a longer period of time. I have also caught my son up on all of his immunizations.

        We travel to Europe regularly, and my opinion is that, even if you weren't planning on going to a third world country- you were just going to Europe- you are dealing with airports, which have a huge cross section of people who might be carrying something.

        Figure out what works for you, but truly, vaccines aren't all bad. They have a place. I think if you are feeling nervous, your intuition is telling you something.
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Sun, July 31, 2005 - 5:58 PM
        Pertussis is whooping cough and VERY common but in adults and got news for yah imunizations and when they get em does not even protect the most vulnerable age group. Whooping cough in fact was of epidemidc proportions last year ... in the "immunized" population as well as those few who are not. Recall any one you know having a hacking phlemy cough this fall or spring? that lasted weeks and was wracking? YUP thats it pertussis.. whooping cough.

        No offense but if your going to come down on those who have litteraly spent YEARS reasearching there choice not to immunize then spend an equal amount of time doing reasearch as to why you choose to
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Wed, June 29, 2005 - 12:02 PM
    I've heard that homeopathic immunizations are recognized by WHO for travel.

    The problem with going to remote areas is that you have to have your immunization card to get IN. Some places have been working so hard at eradicating polio and the like that they won't let you travel to their country if you don't have a card.

    Check with your local consulate on requirements. Europe does not need immunizations.

    I plan on traveling with my kid - he's had most, but not all of his shots (later than usual) - I'll give him the rest before we go. Who am I to work against WHO in eradicating polio?
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Wed, June 29, 2005 - 12:18 PM
      Thanks for all the comments! I will look into homeopathic immunizations.
      I just found this article in Mothering, it's worth a read:


      SUBSCRIBE TO THE FREE MOTHERING NEWSLETTER

      Far-Off Adventures: Vaccinations And Overseas Travel
      By Sherri J. Tenpenny
      Issue 120, September/October 2003


      The time has finally arrived for the highly anticipated trip out of the country. The plans began long ago: airplane tickets, hotel reservations, rental car, sightseeing plans. The bags are being pulled from the attic to be packed, and the excitement mounts with each passing day. Everything is a go. But wait-what about vaccines? Is this one more preparation that needs to be added to the "To Do" list? Traveling out of the country can feel like a venture to another planet. Pictures of exotic destinations coupled with new, curious foods dance off the pages of the travel brochures. Anticipating the unexpected can be a challenge for even the most seasoned traveler. However, traveling with children adds an extra dimension to the anxiety-the thought of your child becoming ill in a foreign country is extremely frightening. Your doctor is recommending a variety of vaccines. Are they necessary? How do you evaluate the risks?


      VACCINES IN THE US
      Currently, eight different vaccines are recommended for children in the US: Hepatitis B, polio, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTaP), measles-mumps-rubella (MMR), chickenpox, HiB, Prevnar, and, most recently, an annual influenza vaccine. (HiB and Prevnar are given to prevent bacterial infections caused by H. influenza and Strep. pneumonia, respectively. Some of these vaccines are also recommended for international travel. But are the risks of getting these diseases any greater when traveling than they are at home? Let's take a closer look at the more worrisome infections that might be encountered while traveling abroad.


      Hepatitis B is a viral infection that is spread through contact with blood. In the US, Hepatitis B is primarily found in adults, and is spread through intimate contact or through sharing needles used with illicit drugs. Hepatitis B is more common in the general population in East and Southeast Asia and in Sub-Saharan Africa. Even in these areas, the risk for contracting the infection is very low, but if you do, Hepatitis B can make you very ill. Still, the risk of long-term complications is much less than we are generally led to believe. More than 95 percent of those who contract Hepatitis B fully recover, and an infection will result in lifetime immunity for that person. Unless you plan to spend extended periods in close contact with infected persons, the risk of contracting Hepatitis B while traveling is nearly the same as in the US.


      Polio, or poliomyelitis, is an infectious disease caused by a virus that attacks the nervous system. The disease is seen primarily in children under five years of age; the initial symptoms include fever, fatigue, headache, vomiting, stiffness in the neck, and pain in the limbs. Paralysis results in approximately 1 to 2 percent of children who contract the viral infection, though the vast majority recovers completely from this paralysis. A few, however, go on to have permanent, lifetime disability.


      While polio was once common throughout the undeveloped world, today only seven countries continue to have polio-endemic rural areas: Afghanistan, Egypt, India, Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Somalia. The disease is no longer a threat and will soon be completely eradicated. Although the Western Hemisphere was certified "polio-free" by the World Health Organization in 1994 and there have been no cases of wild polio in this region since 1991, the US vaccination schedule still includes four doses of the polio vaccine. 1 The reason given for this is that, until polio is eradicated entirely, the risk of reintroducing polio into this country is "only a plane ride away." However, an examination of the data reveals only six cases of imported polio documented between 1980 and 1998, the last in New York City in 1993.2 The risk for contracting polio is negligible, even at home.


      Tetanus is an acute, spastic paralytic illness caused by a toxin released from the bacterium Clostridium tetani. The bacterium is found in soils and animal feces throughout the world.


      There are several forms of tetanus: neonatal, cephalic, localized, and generalized. In infants, neonatal tetanus is the most common and most deadly. However, the vast majority of these cases occur following childbirth, as a result of using nonsterile equipment to cut the umbilical cord. Cephalic tetanus, the least common, causes muscle spasms in the face, leading to the classic case of "lockjaw." Localized tetanus is recurring muscle contraction near the original site of the infection; recovery can take many weeks.


      Generalized tetanus, the most common, is the slowest to develop. The disease is characterized by a gradual increase in skeletal muscle rigidity and muscle spasm. Deep, dirty punctures are at greatest risk for developing the infection because the bacterium thrives only in areas that are deprived of oxygen.


      The symptoms of any type of tetanus infection develop slowly. The incubation period-the time between when the injury occurred and the development of a full-blown infection-can range from five days to two months, but the initial symptoms most commonly begin to appear within 14 days. Early symptoms of infection include restlessness, headache, and localized itching or pain at the site of the injury. It is generally believed that tetanus is a highly fatal disease, but an examination of the data proves otherwise. In the most recent evaluation of tetanus data by the CDC, it was found that the death rate associated with tetanus was 11 percent, nowhere near the "nearly 100 percent fatal" so widely believed.3 It is also commonly accepted that a tetanus shot will prevent the onset of tetanus. Again, the data show that, even if a person has three or more tetanus shots, it is still possible to contract the disease.4 A recent issue of the British Medical Journal reported that tetanus can occur "despite adequate immunization and [adequate] levels of neutralizing antibodies."5


      Frequent tetanus shots may give a false sense of security; the best way to protect from the disease is to thoroughly clean the wound with copious amounts of warm, soapy water, and to encourage the injury to bleed profusely. Prophylactic antibiotics, such as metronidazole and penicillin, are effective against the bacterium that releases tetanus toxin into the bloodstream. It might be a good idea to carry these with you in your travel kit if you are going to off-beat places. If you have access to medical care when traveling, a shot of tetanus immune globulin (TIG) can be given for severe injuries. Equivalent to a "dose of antibodies," TIG continues to circulate in the body for up to three weeks, and can effectively neutralize any toxin that might be released by the tetanus-causing bacterium.


      WHAT ABOUT EXOTIC DISEASES?
      When traveling overseas, it is possible to encounter some illnesses not generally seen in the US. The Centers for Disease Control lists the following infections as possible concerns for anyone traveling to any destination around the globe:6


      Typhoid Fever, an acute, febrile illness caused by the bacterium Salmonella typhi, is characterized by fever, headache, and enlargement of the spleen. The greatest risk is for travelers to the Indian subcontinent and to developing countries in Asia, Africa, and Central and South America who will have prolonged exposure to potentially contaminated food and drink.


      Yellow Fever is a mosquito-borne viral illness that can vary in severity from a flu-like syndrome to severe hepatitis and hemorrhagic fever. The disease occurs only in sub-Saharan Africa and rural, tropical South America.


      Japanese Encephalitis, another mosquito-borne viral infection, is found throughout Asia, particularly in rural or agricultural areas of the temperate regions of China, Japan, Korea, and eastern Russia. The risk to short-term travelers and those who confine their travel to urban centers is very low.


      Tick-borne Encephalitis, also known as spring-summer encephalitis, is a tick-borne viral infection that causes inflammation of the central nervous system. Although the disease is common throughout Europe, travelers are at low risk unless they visit forested areas and/or eat nonpasteurized dairy products.


      Hepatitis A is a viral disease that has an onset of fever, malaise, nausea, and diarrhea, followed within a few days by jaundice. The disease ranges in clinical severity from no symptoms at all to a mild illness lasting one to two weeks. Although endemic throughout the world, Hepatitis A can be prevented by carefully following the hygiene and food recommendations listed in the sidebar "Minimizing Risks."


      WHAT'S RECOMMENDED? WHAT'S REQUIRED?
      Although the CDC recommends that all travelers obtain vaccines when traveling abroad, it is important to realize that, with one exception, no vaccine is required before you travel anywhere in the world: they are only "recommended." You will not be required to have a vaccination record to enter a country, nor will you be required to obtain vaccines to return home.


      The sole exception is the Yellow Fever vaccine, which may be required if you travel to or from a South American or African country infected with Yellow Fever. The recommendations can vary from country to country; if such a destination is part of your travel plans, you should look up the Yellow Fever requirements for that specific country. The CDC's Comprehensive Yellow Fever Vaccination Requirements are available at www.cdc.gov/travel/yelfever.htm#yfcert.


      I have been a globe-trotter for most of my adult life. In the past 25 years, I have traveled to more than 40 countries. I have never been asked for a vaccine record, nor have I ever felt the need for any vaccines, even when traveling to remote, exotic destinations.


      ARE THERE OTHER HEALTH RISKS TO CONSIDER?
      Vaccines are available for all diseases mentioned above, should you choose to vaccinate. Infections that are a concern worldwide, and for which there are no vaccines, include malaria and Traveler's Diarrhea.


      Malaria is a serious, sometimes fatal disease caused by a parasite that is injected into the body by an infected mosquito. The parasite grows in the liver, then infects circulating red blood cells. Symptoms of malaria include fever, shaking chills, headache, muscle aches, vomiting, diarrhea, and extreme fatigue. If untreated, death from malaria can occur due to dehydration and kidney failure.


      For most people, the symptoms of malaria begin ten days to four weeks after they become infected, although the symptoms may not develop until as much as a year later. Anyone who begins to have recurring, shaking chills up to one year after returning home should seek professional medical care. Be sure to tell your healthcare provider that you have visited a malaria-risk area.


      Prescription drugs for the prevention of malaria are sometimes recommended for those traveling to malaria-endemic countries. Some antimalarial drugs are more effective in some parts of the world than others, but all of them have side effects and potential complications. In addition, a medical condition may prevent your child from taking certain drugs.


      An alternative to taking drugs is to use mosquito precautions (see sidebar). It is important to obtain a natural mosquito repellant, one that is free of DEET, the toxic additive found in most insect repellants. My favorite is Natural Mosquito Repellant, made by Royal Neem. It is free of chemicals and contains many natural ingredients: aloe vera; the oils of coconut, neem, lemongrass, citronella, cedarwood, and rhodiumwood; and extracts of myrrh, barberry, thyme, goldenseal, and chamomile. Further suggestions for additional natural insect repellents can be found at www.mercola.com.


      If you contract malaria, a natural treatment is available that is perhaps even more effective than pharmaceuticals, and is certainly less toxic. During an archeological dig in the 1970s, instructions for treating malaria with an herb called wormwood, or artemisia, were found in a 2000-year-old Chinese tomb. Shortly thereafter, Western scientists isolated the herb's active component and called it "artemisinin." Studies in China and Vietnam have confirmed that artemisinin is a highly effective compound, with a close to 100 percent response rate in the treatment of malaria. Outside the US, artemisinin is the No. 1 natural herb used to treat malaria. The World Health Organization is investigating the use of this herb worldwide for malaria treatments. Because there can be a wide variation in quality, it is important that artemisinin be purchased from a reputable source, such as Allergy Research Group, www.allergyresearchgroup.com. It should be noted that this company only sells to licensed healthcare practitioners.


      Traveler's Diarrhea This is, by far, the most common illness affecting those traveling outside the US. It is estimated that between 20 and 50 percent of travelers-nearly 10 million people each year-develop diarrhea. Although a variety of viral and parasitic pathogens can be the cause, by far the most common source of Traveler's Diarrhea is the bacteria E. coli.


      Symptoms usually begin abruptly and increase over several days. The typical experience includes four or more watery bowel movements each day, associated with nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramping, fever, and malaise. Most cases are benign and resolve in one to two days without treatment. Although rarely life-threatening, Traveler's Diarrhea can bring a sudden halt to the fun and mystique of international travel.


      The best way to avoid Traveler's Diarrhea is by strict adherence to food and water precautions (see sidebar, "Minimizing Risks"). In addition, studies have shown that taking two tablespoons of Pepto-Bismol four times a day (for adults) can decrease the incidence of Traveler's Diarrhea. The dosage for children nine to 12 is one tablespoon four times a day, children six to nine, two teaspoonfuls; three to six, one teaspoonful; under three, consult a physician before taking. (People allergic to aspirin, pregnant women, and those on the blood thinner Coumadin should not take Pepto-Bismol. Also, large doses of Pepto-Bismol can temporarily blacken the tongue and stool.)


      The most important treatment for Traveler's Diarrhea is oral rehydration to replace lost fluids and electrolytes. Clear liquids are routinely recommended for adults, and, for children, electrolyte-based liquids such as Gatorade. On rare occasions, antibiotics may be required if the symptoms persist for more than a few days.


      The Best Medicine
      The best medicine for any type of infectious disease is always prevention. For most diseases around the world, common-sense precautions are the best way to stay healthy. Since for nearly every destination in the world vaccinations are only recommended, not required, a trip to your doctor for vaccines is one item you can cross off your pre-trip "To Do" list. Go and have fun!


      MINIMIZING RISKS
      1. Eat only cooked foods hot to the touch. Avoid eating food from street vendors.
      2. Avoid eating raw fruits and vegetables unless you peel them yourself.
      3. Drink only "safe" beverages: sealed bottled water, carbonated beverages, hot tea, coffee, beer, wine, and boiled water.
      4. Don't drink beverages with ice.
      5. Avoid eating raw or undercooked meat and seafood.
      6. Avoid all tap water, and be careful of getting shower water in your mouth. When dining in restaurants, ask whether the salad greens have been washed in boiled or distilled or bottled water.
      7. Avoid nonpasteurized milk and dairy products.


      PROTECT YOURSELF FROM MOSQUITO BITES
      o Pay special attention to mosquito protection between dusk and dawn.
      o Wear long-sleeved shirts, long pants, and hats.
      o Frequently apply natural insect repellant.


      NOTES
      1. CDC, "Certification of Poliomyelitis Eradication-The Americas," MMWR 43 (1994): 720-722
      2. CDC, "Poliomyelitis Prevention in the United States Update," MMWR 49 (2000, RR05): 1-22
      3. CDC, "Tetanus Surveillance," MMWR 47 (July 1998, 55-2): 13.
      4. Ibid.
      5. Letter to the Editor, British Medical Journal 320 (5 February 2000): 383.
      6. CDC Travelers' Health, www.cdc.gov/travel/destinat.htm.


      Sherri J. Tenpenny, DO, is board-certified in Emergency Medicine. She is CEO of OsteoMed II, located in Strongsville, Ohio, an Integrative Medicine clinic that treats ADD/ADHD, autism, and a wide variety of autoimmune disorders seen in children and adults. An advocate for healthcare choice, including the right to refuse vaccination, Dr. Tenpenny speaks nationally and internationally on the unspoken health risks of vaccines.


      For more information on vaccines see the Mothering Reprint: Vaccines: Mercury, Autism and Chronic Disease



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      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Wed, July 13, 2005 - 11:59 PM
        glad you posted this article from mothering magazine.
        in the circle of organic parents i was working with the past couple years, several chose not to vaccinate or to do so selectively and mothering provided much of their support and research along with a book or two available thru mothering. in my own childhood i almost died due to complications from the vaccine dpt- where the p is for pertussis, or whooping cough, the disease talked about above in the daycare center. what an unfortunate story that is, with the daycare center, the vaccination issue is really a hot topic and one for each family's own research and meditation on the topic to take precedence for their own children. personally the known risk of the vaccines is way high in my book over the smaller risk of the diseases themselves- in the country. to travel out of the country, while i know friends that have travelled with unimunized kids and been fine, i think i would wait until after three years old myself- because this is how long it takes, in full-on breastfeeding years, for all of the mothers' antibodies to be passed on to the child, and this is my goal for when i have kids (yeah, i visit parenting tribes and i don't yet have kids, but i've been working with kids for 14 years so...) to breastfeed for 3 years and then selectively immunize as needed to travel to selected places. likely a veggie oil caravan to south america. ;-)
        keep us posted on your decisions!
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Thu, August 14, 2008 - 11:50 PM
        Thank you for the great article Francine. I am still pregnant, but in the process of planning a move to Asia in a little over a year and leaning towards no or minimal vacinnations, especially since the first place I will be going will be a city in a low risk country. This thread has given me a lots of resources to look into even if your question may have not been answered as throughly as you like.

        I want to mention too, that another good defense against mosquito bites is Vitamin B-12. The malaria pills I took for being in the jungles of Guatemala several years ago had some nasty side effects, making me unwilling to take more when I went to Thailand (and hiking in the woods and rice patties during rainy season) a couple of years later. The B-12 will turn your pee bright yellow, but I routinely watched mosquitos approach me, hover briefly, and fly away without landing. The only thing to note is that if you are someone who likes to eat or feeds your children a lot of sweet and sugary foods the B-12 may not help much, as mosquitos seem to like "sweet" people regardless of B-12.

        • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

          Fri, August 15, 2008 - 4:36 AM
          it's actually the riiboflavin..vitamin B2, not B12...that makes urine so deep rellow..."flavis" means "yellow" in Latin. I((12 is vyanocolakamin and is needed only in MICROGRAMS...thousandths of a gram...but probably would look blue, not yellow, iof you could see a significant amount of it/_ concut that taking a B-vitamin complex does seem to be a mosquito deterrent. I also think that when I switched to using all unscneted body care products because of allergy0ike migraine sensitivity, I became a lot less sensitive to bug bites, and/or a lot less tasty to the insects.

          not sue rthis answers vaccine questions, as most injectible immunizations don;t address mosquito-borne diseased (except for maybe yellow fever, which isn;t given that commonly that I know of, especailly to children)...

          speaking of sweets: mosquitos are attracted to carbon dioxide; entomologists build mosquito traps with dry ice to study them! I don;t know if some people emit more CO2 (sorry, can;t do subscripts in trib.,net program but it seems like one more reason to hold off on the soda pop (and the beer...)
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Tue, July 19, 2005 - 5:07 PM
      >>I've heard that homeopathic immunizations are recognized by WHO for travel.

      I don't think that's true. They don't discuss "homeopathic immunizations" anywhere on their website (who.int), or in the Travel section of the website (www.who.int/ith/en/).

      It's ironic, because a immunizations is homeopathic by definition-- it's "similar suffering"-- a small, sterilized dose of the virus to trigger an immune reaction. I guess it's just not recognized as such by Natural Practitioners.
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Tue, July 19, 2005 - 5:14 PM
        because when something is diluted so much that you can't detect it, it's not going to work.

        thus...why recognize it?
        • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

          Tue, July 19, 2005 - 7:54 PM
          er... uh... maybe you should do a little research into homeopathy before saying "it's not going to work". It's used by a majority of people in Europe as an alternative or adjunct to western medicine. And on a personal note - I use it to great results - Hyland's teething tablets worked much better than tylenol and without the liver damage.

          And I believe it was someone on the Attachment Parenting tribe who is using homeopathic vaccinations for travel. Check the threads there.
          • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

            Tue, July 19, 2005 - 8:06 PM
            I'll look into it, but in the reading I have done, the success rate of homeopathic treatment is no greater than that of faith healing. (which can be impressive, btw) However, when traveling to countries with polio, measles, etc...It falls close to child endangerment to go unprotected.

            I know...not a popular stance. I'll live.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Thu, July 14, 2005 - 1:17 AM
    this is such a great topic, as i was recently having this discussion with some friends of mine.

    i hate getting my boy's vaccinations because of how much they scream. i mean, i just read about some school up in the northeast that was up in arms because of a bout with the chicken pox; apparently, the school did not require the new chicken pox vaccine and they had an outbreak, and several parents were up in arms once they discovered that the school did not require the vaccine in the student's boosters.

    it makes me laugh- people freak out about the chicken pox. i just heard that rubella is officially on the CDC's list of eradicated diseases in the US as there has not been a reported case in something like twenty years. but remember... in the rest of the world, this is not true. there are still violent polio outbreaks in a lot of third world countries. some of my relatives in the phillipines (you know, like fifth and sixth cousins, but still) have kids with polio. and they're not as "third world" as a lot of the african nations, for example. to us, polio seems so foreign. do you know anyone who had polio? no, because that's stuff from our grandparent's time. mumps? measles? rubella? i couldn't even describe the symptoms of most of those horrible diseases. unfortunately, they're a reality to a lot of the poorer nations of the world.

    i'm not sure what your reasons are for not immunizing your kids. i can tell you that my best friend has never had a vaccine, has travelled extensively to europe and south america, and she's still alive and annoying the crap outta me. i can also tell you that she has a prepared speech to scream at anyone that dares to make a judgment call on her or her mother for her unimmunized self. but that it, too- she's had a pretty difficult time. for instance, she was the only person in california lutheran university history to arrive without immunizations- and she actually had to have her mother call up the office and quote the law stating that they could not force her to get a freakin' shot.

    stick to your guns. you've done a good job with your bébé so far, right? talk to the doc, keep up the good research. you know what's best.

    oh, and have fun! if you go to brazil, listen to the portuguese. it's the hottest language on the planet!
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Tue, July 19, 2005 - 5:28 PM
      me again.
      So is there anyone out there that actually HAS traveled with unimmunized or selectively immunized kids? i'm getting a lot of opinions and emotional reactions but no actual 1st hand experiences.
      Just curious....
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Mon, July 25, 2005 - 3:23 PM
        Hi Francine,

        (No, I have not traveled with unimmunized kids....)
        Not to continue the discussion of vaccinating vs. not vaccinating... Something important worth mentioning, tho, that I didn't see mentioned above-
        Even with immunizations, one can still possibly get the illness they were vaccinated against.

        I'm not saying not to get a vaccination for a particular illness from a foreign area you are traveling. What I'm saying is that, in general, vaccinations are not a guarantee you'll never contract certain illnesses. For example, you may get vaccinated against an older version of an illness, when a newer strain is already spreading around.

        I've even read this in a pro-vaccination article. However, I don't think they realized what they were really saying when they wrote it. This article was blaming unvaccinated kids for spreading illnesses around. It actually said that a bunch of kids who were vaccinated against a particular illness *caught* that illness because it was being spread by unvaccinated kids! I had to laugh out loud at that one.

        Good luck with your decision! And, happy journies!

        Snow & unvaccinated Baby
        (but we'll travel, too, so who knows what will happen?...It all begins with a healthy immune system....)
        • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

          Mon, July 25, 2005 - 11:43 PM
          of course, I wasn't laughing at the children who got ill....
          • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

            Tue, July 26, 2005 - 9:02 AM
            Um....

            When unvaccinated kids pick up an illness then spead it to kids who WILL be vaccinated, but are not old enough for a particular vaccine it is irresponsible on the part of the parent that made that choice.

            It just is.
            • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

              Tue, July 26, 2005 - 10:05 AM
              And who's responsibility is it when vaccines are dangerous or ineffective?

              The whole reason WHY people don't want to vaccinate their kids is because the people who SHOULD be taking responsibility aren't. They even tried to have liaibility for vaccine injury excused for the big pharma corporations in the Patriot Act (the Eli Lily clause).

              The FACT is: people don't trust the corporations to have their best interests or the health and safety of their kids at heart.

              I didn't have the recommended Hep B vaccine for my son at birth. Why? Because I've done my research and know that he is highly unlikely to get Hep B. I feel the same about MMR which has a record of having bad reactions. If he does get mumps or measles (there has been no case of rubella in the US for 20 years) he may or may not get really sick. I will get that vaccination - but not until he's older. A friend here on tribe did not immunize and her child got a very mild case of measles - but the kids who WERE immunized got really sick.

              I did get him immunized for Hib and Pneumo because I did my reasearch and saw those as a valid threat.

              EVERY parent should make an informed choice regarding vaccines, it's the uninformed people who just follow guidelines like sheep who are being irresponsible.
              • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:14 AM
                vaccines ARE NOT dangerous (at least no more than not being vaccinated) and they ARE effective (although not 100%). if you had done your research you would know that.
                • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                  Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:16 AM
                  Thanks for your OPINION, Master, but not everyone agrees with you on that point. If you'd done YOUR research you might be aware of that.

                  God forbid your kid turns up with Autism, but if he did, I'd wager you'd change your tune.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                    Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:24 AM
                    all scientific research done so far has shown no statistical correlation between vaccination and autism
                    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                      Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:33 AM
                      Once upon a time, "all scientific research" indicated that smoking cigarettes was a healthy activity. They thought it induced "deep breathing", which promoted relaxation. And doctors advised their high anxiety patients to smoke.

                      They were wrong, weren't they?
                      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                        Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:39 AM
                        please, let us not confuse scientific research with promotional communications (and that is what the deep breathing you mention was all about, there was no research behind it). scientific research shows that nicotine does indeed reduce anxiety levels in some patients. it also shows smoking greatly increases your chances of getting a wide range of diseases, including several types of cancer (which in turn increase stress and anxiety levels in the long run). and we decide what is best for each of us
                        • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                          Tue, July 26, 2005 - 12:27 PM
                          • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                            Tue, July 26, 2005 - 1:44 PM
                            while advertising-financed sensationalist journalism can make an interesting reading, i hesitate to call it research: there are no sources i can check for myself, no evidence of facts, no hard data, just hearsay and personal opinions.

                            i prefer to look at scientific research, where you can see the data, you know the sources, you can identify the researchers, and if you want (and have the money), you can replicate the studies for yourself:

                            www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/gin...lancet/
                            Brent%2520Taylor%2520June%25201999.pdf

                            bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/cont.../7284/460

                            www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

                            bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/repr...4/393.pdf

                            pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...pdf

                            and on and on and on. is this kind of scientific research perfect? no. do i trust it more than rolling stone? for medical research, you betcha
                            • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                              Wed, July 27, 2005 - 6:20 AM
                              You speak as though you work for a pharmacutical company or are personlly responsible for the products they produce.

                              Well, the first link did not work.

                              Did you notice this at the bottom of the second link?

                              >>The Boston Collaborative Drug Surveillance Program is supported in part by grants from AstraZeneca, Berlex Laboratories, Boehringer Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals, Boots Healthcare International, Bristol-Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute, GlaxoWellcome, Hoffmann-La Roche, Janssen Pharmaceutica Products, R W Johnson Pharmaceutical Research Institute; McNeil Consumer Products, and Novartis Farmaceutica.<<

                              The third link is just an article titled "No evidence for measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine-associated inflammatory bowel disease or autism in a 14-year prospective study." but when attempting to read or access the article, you must sign up to these sites as paid subscribers. Are you a paid subscriber of any of those sites?

                              The fourth link, also from bmj, says it is funded by the "Department of Health" and under Competing Interests, it says "none declared". Hmmm.

                              The last link simply says that when vaccines containing thimerosol were removed from use by the Danish Population, the rate of autism continued to rise. That, to me, is not an indicator that it didn't play a rold.

                              Did you click through to any of these? Did you personally read any of them? Or did you just grab an article whose title seemed to support your argument? Of the ones I can actually access, they're all across the board in terms of what they're studying. Some tackle the MMR, most are European population based, thimerosol removal, autism/inflamatory bowel disease...

                              So, I'm terribly sorry if the fact that the Robert Kennedy Jr. article was printed in Rolling Stone, but it was also printed in Salon.com and is being taken very seriously. I've seen and heard Robert Kennedy Jr. talk about his findings in several places.

                              Anyway, I've just spent way too much time looking through the links you provided. Certainly more time than you have, and I don't want to debate this here. I am not a scientist, and I must rely on the people who interpret this data in order to understand it, but I have read enough compelling evidence to tell me that there's reason to be cautious. You believe what you want and vaccinate your kid however you see fit. I, however, will take a little more personal responsibility for my kids, thank you.
              • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:14 AM
                here, here.

                It is irresponsible, in my opinion, for parents to simply take the word of the pediatrician, who in turn is just spewing AMA "guidelines", which is basically controled at this point by the pharmacutical companies that lobby congress. But as a parent, if you do your research and vaccinate accordingly, THAT's responsible.
                • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                  Tue, July 26, 2005 - 11:21 AM
                  that's exactly my point. we as parents are responsible for making educated, well-informed decisions for our children. i don't take my children's pediatritian's word at face value, much less the media or rumors without any factual base. i go back to the scientific literature, look at the hard numbers and make decisions.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                    Tue, July 26, 2005 - 3:26 PM
                    maybe this should be another thread...cuz I'm still looking for someone who has traveled with their UN-immunized or selectively immunized kids.
                    I've done my research, made my decisions with my partner and don't need anyone to try and persuade me otherwise. But hey, thanks.
                    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                      Tue, July 26, 2005 - 3:37 PM
                      you are right, this digresses from your original question

                      (by the way, i wasn't trying to persuade you or anyone of anything. in my posting of 7/29 i already said i assumed you had already done your research and made your decisions regarding vaccination)
                      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                        Tue, July 26, 2005 - 5:37 PM
                        It seems that there has been a consensus that immunization is not one size fits all.

                        However, I would like to throw in my two cents regarding Autism and vaccinations.

                        While my child developed a form of Autism despite NOT being immunized, I do believe that other children have become Autistic as a result of their shots, either due to the composition of the vaccine, or as a result of too many shots at once.

                        As Autism is expressed in a variety of symptoms, and to varying degrees, I think it makes sense to say that it can be caused by a variety of circumstances. It is not a one size fits all neurological disorder.
            • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

              Sun, July 31, 2005 - 6:03 PM
              Excuse me? My unvaccinated kids are more at risk from vaccinated ones.
              Why? because vaccinens are creating more virtulate strains. Because immunizations weaken immuni systems and make those children more vulnerable to other illnesses. Vaccines increase auto immune diseases. Not only that did you know there are many indicators as to why certain kids and familys should NOT be immunized? did you know that DR ignore those indicatiors and do it any way?

              I have a child who has a permenant disability linked to immunizations. No drug company is paying for it after all I had to sign a waiver saying they weren't respinsible if any thing happened to him because of it. So who exactlt is irresponsible?

              and tell me why does an infant need hepB? why do kids need the chicken pox vaccien? why do they have to lump the MMR together even though there is solid statisical linking to autisim?
              • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                Sun, July 31, 2005 - 10:53 PM
                To the Mama who started this thread, I hear you that what the thread has become has been different than an answer to your original question, you're right. Alas, sometimes the seeds we plant bear different fruit than it said on the package. ;-)

                While you & your partner have done your research and come to your decisions, as have many of us, you have also chosen (thanks!) to post on a public forum, where others have done other research & come to other conclusions, and we all get to share, for whatever reasons and for the benefit of all beings. Maybe somebody will find the thread shedding light on the risks of vaccines for the first time. Everything for a reason...

                **To address your concern on finding likeminded parents directly:
                I noticed that Mothering magazine had that great article on travelling with unimmunized kids, posted above. It seems you are not finding the parents you wish to communicate with in this forum on tribe. May I humbly and enthusiastically suggest contacting Mothering magazine, perhaps in as bold a move as a letter to the editor, asking to hear from such families who have travelled without vaccinations about their experience in doing so, and include your contact info, and you may very well here a number of stories. When you do, please do post your findings back to us here!

                **To address the concern of vaccine info in general, particularly risks:
                It seems apparent that we understand different things. That's okay.
                It's not apparent to me that we all understand the sources of the research being referenced for these understandings. So here's my service, to share some of it. I feel called to scurry some of it together, here it goes:

                There's a site I'll mention below at length from dr. jay gordon,
                (and Mama, he may be able to put you in touch with the right parents for you to talk to or have more information if you ask him kindly, ey?)

                here's two bits from his article, "Vaccinations Today":
                ".....Many countries begin vaccines later and slower and I strongly believe we should do the same things. The expedient and economically superior method, which we use now, doesn't serve our babies well.

                I would like to summarize my point of view by making it clear, once again, that very few responsible experts have reservations about the way we give vaccines. I do.

                I also don't like the financial ties that vaccine researchers have to the manufacturers because some of these same experts help make the official decisions about which shots will be approved and/or required....."

                (stars added by me cause this below is pertinent to the original question)
                *************************************************************
                "....Perhaps the most frequently asked questions involve coming in contact with ill people while our families travel and the possibility of immigrants or visitors from other countries bringing rare illnesses to the U.S. "Possible but highly unlikely," is the short answer with a full discussion beyond the scope of this short article. A family planning a two-year sojourn to Africa or Asia or Eastern Europe needs a completely different discussion of vaccination. There are no diseases in Europe that will threaten an unvaccinated child any more than in the USA. Again, this is beyond the scope of this present discussion.
                ************************************************************

                In my office, with families I know well, I believe that the main idea I convey is that we should vaccinate later and slower. One shot at a visit starting later in the first year and perhaps in the second year of life. I have many families in my practice who have chosen to give their children no vaccines.

                My one request is that you thoroughly discuss with your physician all of the benefits and risks of vaccines with an absence of the usual scare tactics we doctors sometimes use."
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~

                i really enjoy the wellrounded posts and research presented to parents by this dr. jay gordon: www.drjaygordon.com
                he posts a lot about progressive health in pediatricks... from circumcision, to vegetarian and veganism, breastfeeding, etc. to find his posts about vaccinations:
                follow the link to "A-Z"
                and under V find several headings:
                Vaccination, School Requirements
                Vaccination Overview
                Vaccination Schedule
                Vaccinations Today
                Vaccines in Preemies

                He also includes a page of wellrounded links:
                www.drjaygordon.com/links/vaccine.htm
                browse there for all things vaccine related. really.
                including,
                Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning [(a scientific study)]

                www.safeminds.org/research/...l-2001.pdf

                and there's the good ol' mothering info packet
                available from mothering.com:

                Vaccines: Mercury, Autism and Chronic Disease Reprint
                Recognized for journalistic excellence, and now reprinted in one 32-page, full-color publication, these articles contain information no parent should be without, including:
                Details on the use of the known neurotoxin mercury in flu vaccines
                Alarming evidence of the possible connection between vaccines and autism
                An exploration of the rise in chronic disease
                Stories of parental activism and advocacy on behalf of their vaccine-injured children
                The hopeful example of one child’s recovery from autism We hope this comprehensive reprint will help parents make informed vaccine decisions

                Here's an 'expert' worth looking into if you're wondering where the vaccine/autism debate/research/activism stands right now...
                Wednesday, June 29th, 2005 - David Kirby.
                David Kirby, author of "Evidence of Harm". The book was a catalytic element in bringing the autism / thimerosal connection to the forefront. As a journalist, Mr. Kirby has proved a credible and immensely helpful ally to autism activists. And apparently, he's got the opposition running scared: last week Dr. Paul Offit, a prominent critic of the autism / thimerosal connection, refused to appear with Mr. Kirby on MSNBC to discuss the topic. On behalf of the parents of autistic children, whom he credits with "keeping this story alive", Mr. Kirby has issued an open invitation "to discuss the evidence of harm from thimerosal with anyone, anywhere, at any time." To that end, David Kirby appeared last week on the Montel Williams Show, on MSNBC's "Connected" and in a Don Imus radio interview, in addition to two days of briefing politicians on Capitol Hill.

                As well as of course, the classic book:
                "What your doctors may NOT tell you about vaccinations."

                okay, hope the links might help somebody who might desire to know where to start their researching loop on the risks of vaccines tip.
                • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

                  Mon, August 1, 2005 - 8:15 AM
                  That's a really great post Xylem. Thanks. I especially appreciate this bit:

                  >>".....Many countries begin vaccines later and slower and I strongly believe we should do the same things. The expedient and economically superior method, which we use now, doesn't serve our babies well.<<

                  Because while my first child is autistic and I cannot say with any certainty that the vaccinations he received had anything to do with it, I calso cannot say that they didn't. I would also like to reiterate for the umteenth time that I am not suggesting that any parent not vaccinate any child. I am simply suggesting that they not simply follow AMA guidelines and its color-by-numbers, one-vaccination-schedule-fits-all approach to immunizing our children. With my second child, I am going with a much slower vaccination approach, spacing the shots, avoiding multi-doses wherever possible.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Fri, August 5, 2005 - 11:58 AM
    I have to admit I'm biased regarding immunizations (pediatric ICU nurse, so I have seen the consequences illnessess that could have been avoided by immunizations.) But I've always supported my families in their decisions regarding vaccines, as long as their decision is researched and each immunization is evaluated on a case-by case/as-needed basis. While it's true that there is low risk for a lot of diseases if the child remains in the states, even then there is risk, because there are so many immigrants from other parts of the world who bring these so called "irradicated" diseases back home. Certainly children who travel to parts of the world with active infections should be immunized against those infections. I'm sure there are anti-vaccine purists who disagree, but since I've seen devistation of families from travel-related illness, I just can't support taking that risk. That doesn't mean your child needs every available immunization, but you should seriously consider ones for diseases that are a problem in the country you are traveling to.
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Fri, August 5, 2005 - 12:00 PM
      Oh, also keep in mind that if your child becomes sick while overseas, chances are that in less-devoloped countries your child won't have access to the kind of health care you're used to at home.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Tue, August 9, 2005 - 5:40 AM
    Thank you for your question. I too have had the same one, yet I have not traveled with my child out of the country yet. We have pretty much come to the conclusion that if we should travel to third world countries we might just vaccinate her. For now, the decision will be up to her what kind of responsibility she wants to take as an adult for maintaining boosters and such. I know that I am not happy that I have to maintain something that someone started in me when I was not old enough to make that decision.


    On another note, I am surprised (unless I missed it) that no one has mentioned the National Vaccination Information Center (NVIC) www.909shot.com/

    They have such great information and their goal is not to sway one way or the other, but to provide information so parents can make in INFORMED decision.

    Blessings
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Wed, August 10, 2005 - 12:15 PM
      Why do you think you have to keep up the boosters for shots you got as a kid? Just because you were immunized in the past doesn't mean you're required to keep getting boosters. If you want to keep up your immunity you may need to, but the choice is totally yours.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Thu, May 8, 2008 - 7:46 PM
    Hey Francine,

    We've been traveling through Europe and Central America with our daughter. She just turned 4 yo. Which countries are you planning to visit and how old is your kid?

    I can only tell you what we did and why we chose those things.

    Our daughter didn't get any vaccines at all for as long as we lived in the US without any plans to leave. I refused the Hep B at birth and have no plans to give it to her. As for the rest, we started giving her the things we felt were most important based on where we were traveling.

    She got the pneumococcal. Two reasons. The disease freaks me out. I don't think i could diagnose it on my own and thus might not be able to get dd to help in time. I did start studying homeopathy because I've heard good results have been shown against many of these diseaseas. But I really don't know enough yet to do this on my own. I also figured if we waited until 3 yo to give the pnuemococcal, she only needed one dose (instead of -- I think -- the 3 she would have had otherwise.

    Then I wanted her to have Measles and Tetanus bc the CDC reflects incidence of these two in the countries we traveled. Tetanus as issue anywhere there's farmland and cattle and there had been recent Measles outbreaks all over central and south america.

    Our pediatrician pretty much refused to give us just those three shots and offered us no other solutions. I do think, though, if you wanted your ped to administer them, you could find a lab or doctor nearby who might provide you with the single shots. We were in the middle of a move and thus started running out of time bf leaving. We had to start something in order to space all the shots at least one month apart. So she got the MMR and the DPT. To a lesser degree, Polio was a concern, but since there have been outbreaks in places we may go, we decided to give it to her.

    We will finish the series of each of these, but I don't plan on giving her Varicella. It was more than I wanted to give her overall, but we at least minimized the number of a most of the shots, spaced them out and never gave her anything when she might have been ill.

    I don't know anything about the homeopathic vaccines, but had I been more organized, I most definitely would look into them. A good constitutional homeopathic remedy given before leaving could be useful as well. You can also give Arnica prior to a shot (for trauma/ brusing type wounds) and Ledum after (for insect bites/puncture wounds). We gave her 2-4 balls of 30c.

    There are two books I used as a basis for most of these decisions. Stephanie Cave's "What Your Dr Might Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations" and Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide." There's a good amount of research cited in the book. I saw Dr Sears has a guide book on it as well. While I have generally found his advice to be useful, I haven't read it.

    As for Central America... while measles may exist here, I've found dengue fever, Staph and E. Coli infections to be more of an issue. So a good insect repellent , neosporin, a good thermometer and knowing when it's time to go to a hospital. There is decent medical care to be found and it is not expensive, but you do need to know where to go.

    Whatever the case, it's damn exciting traveling as a family.

    xoL

    PS We use Avon Skin So Soft to ward off the mosquitos and chitras, along with Lavender and Tea Tree essential oils. There are also plenty of local natural repellents, too.
  • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

    Fri, May 9, 2008 - 9:47 AM
    My girls are 12 & 10. Not immunized. Not traveled abroad. Yes, born at home, No day care..ever Yes, go to a small school community.

    I don't rememver the laws regarding visiting other countries. I think that you have to do so to be allowed to fly. I think that if I were to travel I would highly consider vacinating. Definalty do your research/
    • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

      Fri, May 9, 2008 - 3:45 PM
      everycountrysets its own regulations for what,if any, vaccine is needed to enter.

      m13year iold daughter has had no vaccines up until now, but tetanus was required to enter Costa Rica, where is is right now (!) for her 8th grade trip,and we decided to go ahead with a single tetanus shot.

      igrew up before they immunized inthe US for measles,mumps,rubella,so Ihad all three of those,as well as chickenpox and 5th disease, before I was 10 years old. no complications from any of them.
      measles can be devastating to malnourished people,but is a fairly mild flu-like condition with a rash in most well nourished people,children and adults. being ingoodVitamin A balance really mitigates the effects of measles infection. (drink carrot juice and eat sweet potatoes when tracveling!) mydaughter has had naturally acquired chickenpox,she was 3:was pretty uncomfortableand feverish but no serious complications.

      polio is spread fecal-oral. in a n area where poliowas endemic, Ibe fienishaboutboiling water and thorough hand-washing, and where Iswamif unvaccinated.

      I think you have to take your own family tendencies toward infection into account.we tend tobe pretty strong constitutionally,never had pneumonia,not even prone to bronchitis...someone more susceptible might make different choices.

      countrieschange their recommendations based on public health epidemiology,andsomeAREAS havedifferent requirements than others.,In 1980,i was in India; they didn trequire any vaccines for entry into the country,(I did havea tetanus booster before I left) but we couldn;t go to Rishikesh without a cholera shot. I got one at a community clinic in New Delhibefore we left ona bus to Rishikesh.

      check frequently for each country you plan to visit. I think there MAY be sme ways toenter some countries on medical or religious exemptions,but t I'm not sure.
      • Re: Traveling With Unimmunized Kids

        Fri, October 24, 2008 - 11:19 AM
        My husband and I will be travelling to Southern Thailand for all of January. Our children aren't immunized. We have a few different health professionals that look after us. My husband and my daughter see a homeopath (and pass on info to my son and I), my son and I see a Naturalpath (and pass info onto my daughter and husband), we all see a Chiropractor, my kids have a pediatrition, and my husband and I have doctors (no we aren't wealthy (I'm a waitress, he's a teachers aid) we just live in Canada! ). No one has pushed immunizations on us. Right now we are all taking homeopathic flu immunizations. We are looking into other homeopathic immunizations, but we wont be jabbing our kids with any shots. Soooo, I will be happy to report back in a few months we we get back from our trip!

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